The New Misogyny

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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby m.standridge » 18 May 2014, 20:57

Sorry Jan...
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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby m.standridge » 18 May 2014, 21:47

Maybe Kate Millett could answer this better than me, but if I were to try to ...second guess her words, she'd say something like this:
SEXISM IS A PART OF THE REACTION.

And, as you noted, sexism is really...has many ugly, ugly faces--and, Jan, really, many of the ugliest of those faces...have been around a long, long time in some parts of the world.

After all, the women's movement has had an impact all over the world. And YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT to say that problems here in the States or in the West, are not the HALF of it!

Back when Sexual Politics came out, for example, Millett was derided widely, but she stuck to her guns about her key historical points, even as attempts were made to imply her sexual orientation somehow clouded her historical vision.

In Africa, Asia and the Middle East--what has often been called the Third World--MY GOD/DESS! That is where the very WORST exploitation of women was going on when Millett's book came out--indeed, when women got the franchise in the West.

Yet, as you know all too well, that level of abuse HAD gone on in the West, only a few centuries--at most--before, too.

The right wing all over the world, is responding to--REACTING to--the women's movement and its impacts.

And, a big thrust in the Islamic area has been exemplified in Boca Haram, there's no doubt. And, in Afghanistan, in Saudi Arabia (supposedly a "trust ally" of the West) and elsewhere.

The dramatic emergency for women in the face of this ONSLAUGHT of the reaction, is in those nations, those areas. I don't argue the point with you, at all, that this is going on elsewhere.

What I think seems to be a difference between us, is you are saying that you don't perceive it to be related to money, because there seems to be this ...sideways shift of power, or attempted shift, by males who are at or below the women who are being so challenged and abused by them.

At the same time, the Islamic (currently) religious zealots, fighting for the life of their perceived values, are getting desperately cruel and ruthless--and there seems no definite financial link there, either, for the dirt poor (really) Islamic man in the street who "Arab springs" against the Establishment--and then proceeds to beat up on the women who helped him when he gains some ascendancy in the area.

Yet... whenever organized religions feel threatened, when their clergy are driven to fanatical measures...what are they concerned about? Declines in power over the masses of the area...right?

What does that usually translate into, besides financial power? Control of the area's resources...unchallenged control. Is that not right?

Similarly...what we've been discussing...that the middle class and working class males here in the West seem to have slipped into this woman hatred, and cruelty toward women...yet what is the motivating thing, the sense of ...deprivation...that they are "aggrieved" about? Is it not...a loss of status, a perceived (and real) loss of financial security?

It isn't that these workers don't have a grievance, it's that their CONDITIONING WHICH GOES BACK HUNDREDS OF YEARS IN THE CULTURE, inclines them to TAKE THEIR PROBLEMS OUT ON THEIR WOMEN. To Blame the Woman, express hostility to her.

When the real enemy is more distant, harder to seem, harder to get at...

OK. Well, I'm trying to describe this, because this reactionary Moslem, reactionary Western...misogyny...truly is financially motivated, in the end. It's about money and resources coming into the Mosques in the Third World, or the pockets of male workers
in the West. Males are led by...rings in their noses, in each of these societies. The West is more secular now, so there's not the return to the charge of "witchcraft," etc., based on religion that had gone on in the Middle Ages and before.

Here, the males are expressing resentment that what Archie Bunker said "goyls were goyls and men were men."

Whatever happened to the good old days when, eh? So, says the System's many institutionalized "voices" to the males, "don't put up with this from a damn woman! Show her who's boss!"

Etc. If I seem to be arguing, it isn't for some kind of power play, or anything...it is to try...to help clarify...the motivator. Yes, the Muslim societies currently are about where the West was centuries ago, in terms of WHAT MOTIVATES the misogyny. But THAT DOESN'T MEAN THE WEST ISN'T SLIPPING INTO REACTIONARY MYSOGYNY at this point in time, too. In both instances, there is the perception that the Old Order is on its last legs, so is fighting ruthlessly, almost no-holds-barred.

The good news is, we do have the means to communicate, and try to clear the air, and identify the enemies: religious zealotry and greed by those at the top of each type of society. Religious zealotry, to ensure the safety of the Islamic system in its "old fashioned" form. In the West, Greed by those at the top, seeking money as protection against increased power by the masses below, and that Greed tries to use lower and middle class males to do its work of suppressing, above all, the female, WHO HAS TO BE AT THE BOTTOM OF EVERYTHING FOR THAT SYSTEM TO WORK.

Because the Reaction, at its core, knows the core truth in what Millett said as she ended her book: "The Revolution that liberates Said and Ommu is not only the last, but the first."

Don't let it win, don't let the Reaction win, is my take. Get potential allies of the same class level to attack the common enemy at the top. How do it? That's what I'm trying to put together. It's what you've been working on, too, I know. I just...wanted to demonstrate to you, that it's still the same dynamic--the same tired dynamic. Some of these guys are lost causes at this time, and certainly NIgeria has a tough haul and is going to need help. The First and Last Revolution has to hit there, too.
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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby Jan » 19 May 2014, 15:08

We've had this power vs money discussion before you know? I'm not entirely convinced that seeing the acquisition of wealth and consequent control is the right way round to see this (I wasn't last time either ;-))

See money is a symbolic evidence of power. And you surely can do a great deal more when you have money than if you live in poverty. Even the concept of wealth is a movable feast isn't it? In my own society I do not regard myself as wealthy in money....there are a heck of a lot of people wealthier than I am (in pure money terms). But when I take a look around - here OR abroad - I know I'm doing alright - you know? There are people in the poorer areas of the world that would take a look at my life and think "She's rich beyond my wildest dreams". You know?

Money is relative.

I'm not convinced power is.

I have to dig deep into my occult roots to really examine power. It means different things to different people....and I feel as though what you see in terms of power-mongering is yet another misinterpretation of a Truth in life. An occultist will tell you that the fully-realised human being is wholly powerful in terms of their own life. But power-mongering has to do with having power over others - ultimate power in many cases. And power that operates outside an ethical framework is always going to lead to abuse in everyday life.

This twisted version of power is always going to flow down the easiest channel I think. And I believe misogyny is one of those easy channels. I don't think this is a top-down effect....unless...oh hang on a minute...I think I just shot my own argument in the foot......

I'm thinking about when it seems this new attitude in ordinary men grew up.....at least in the Western world which had moved so far toward equality between the sexes.....I'm thinking it has become progressively more apparent over this last 5-7 years.....and then I start thinking about what else has happened to affect ordinary men during that time......and that brings me full circle to the recession.

OK I am going to go away and think about this for a bit ;-)

Loadsa love
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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby m.standridge » 20 May 2014, 04:06

Hi, Jan
I thought I'd changed what I asserted in my discussion the last time on the point of money, too.
I think I said, above, that the religious zealots want to keep control of the area's resources. Control of resources is power.
And, you know, access to resources.
Now, certainly, access to firearms or physical strength and/or prowess, are forms of power, too.

I also mentioned last night, on a different thread, that I think the thinking of the persons in question, has a lot to do with whether they feel dis-empowered, as well. Because that ties in with the whole idea of negative energies, thoughts, etc.

We are going to have to defeat the politics of a lot of these folks, without as much money as they have to throw around, too.

Leveraging, of such funds and... resources... as are available to the lower classes or lesser empowered, and mass petitioning, and so forth.

I mention money so often in these things, only because, as you said, it's an obvious indicator of power shifts.

Religious zealots or enthusiasts, aren't always after creature comforts, either, and therefore, the kinds of resources that provide creature comforts, such as money, aren't necessarily what they are after. They want a sense of security, though, in the sense of the old familiar being still around.

That, however, provides ...stability, which implies--and is largely built on-- steady control of ...resources.

Best in all,
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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby m.standridge » 20 May 2014, 04:19

I mentioned firearms...but I want to quickly add, in our discussion and for our purposes, we needn't think that firearms are really going to provide power for those at the lower economic end.
I mean, that implies that some sort of ...uneven street battles between, you know, the lower classes in the street, armed in some manner, versus the full-blown military when it's still controlled by and serving the interests of the wealthy. And, no need to tell you how that would turn out.

So, I really don't think that in most instances in these scenarios we're discussing, that the lower economic end's usage of firearms, is going to benefit or be effective. On the other hand, the firearms and weaponry that the military does wield, is powerful, and if, using the political end, that power does pass to the control of the lower economic end, we could have some positive change, putting the military back in the interests of the people, and protecting their interests, again. Nice thought. Maybe then, no more of these ...expeditions to "democratize" various areas of the world, etc.
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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby m.standridge » 20 May 2014, 04:29

I've seen politicians swayed by massive amounts of mail from ordinary people who are constituents, before. That produces change, or can. That, in itself, doesn't involve money, but it does affect...the power structure by impacting on the politician's voting patterns on a given issue.
You know, you see this ...pathetic, as it were, pattern among us males, of sort of...thinking they might do better sexually if the woman is doing this and that...as part of the aging scenario, too. Age can begin to eat into the male's prowess, so he sometimes seeks for his female to...you know, do these various things.

Plus, women "torture their flesh", too, for their men...out of a sense of...what--guilt, obligation, compassion--as their beloved seems to slip away to age. Well, you know, lack of ...economic power and security...has a similiar effect on a fellow.

I would imagine it does to the gals, to, in their own way. I mean, after all, in a weak economy, a gal is going to be thinking more in terms of a healthier fellow, who would be more likely to provide that extra financial value in the odd situation, of a powerful biceps, a stout lift here and there. The baby--her potential baby--is going to need that, right?

I'm a wimp, be the first to tell you. I totally understand how women feel about me. They are just...reacting to the world around them, trying to cope. I don't want to be a burden to them.

But what I love about what your Site is saying so much, is that there are...energies...that we can tap, larger than this life...that promise, so often in the past tied to relgions, is still there. We can tap into THAT, too, Ms. Jan.
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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby m.standridge » 27 May 2014, 21:00

Well, new misogyny data out of California, now, as another lunatic shooter turns out to have posted a lot of misogynist stuff on video online.
He appears to show a bitterness...that...oh, Jan, it's so often this ways with guys who are described by the media as "losers" afterwards...that he has been...rejected for his opportunity in the economy and in life...a sense of...lack of power, of loss of power.
Like these other guys we've been citing in various regards, at least part of the picture, is that he can't picture himself as having hope of meeting that...image we all have or are given by society... the image of, you know, being "normal", having the wife, kids, and nuclear family with medium wages or better...
He's from a well enough off family, but obviously doesn't think he can live up to the opportunity. He projects his low self-esteem out onto others...can't wrestle with the gigantic, scary enemy that actually confronts him, which is the sick, dying economy created by the corporate world.

Instead, he grasped onto everything that added to his anxiety and bitterness...sure he, and he alone, was "left out" was "rejected" and that he, and he alone, was the Victim.

Sometimes it's at the individual level, sometimes at the group level ...as with the intense pressure on Democrats by African-Americans to run one of their number for President--as if it were a ...gauge of some kind, an indicator that they were not being selected out to be left out of the System.

Similarly, now the Gay community has focussed on...how it is ...excluded from the option of marriage...being...picked on, left out. Anything that makes one...feel...selected out, can lead to these stress-triggered behaviors.
A pattern of fascination with fireworks, noise, and the like, seems often to presage these gun attacks, per se. That implies some element of autism.

But the stress-related behaviors--the various making of "statements" by the various groups--it's all part of the larger picture.

The murder of an economy, of a middle-class...it is perceived from a number of different angles, depending on the group one is in.
Substitute "resources" for "money" if you wish...but what does it boil down to, besides economic-triggered stress?
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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby m.standridge » 27 May 2014, 21:39

Part of why women feel alienated from males so often, can be seen in these media reports that so often cite an individual male who was a "loser" and a "loner".

Because, what the media is doing, is verbally "punishing" the criminal, after the crime, for a set of behaviors that is actually otherwise considered "normal" for a male who is ...not succeeding financially.

After all, males have no...intrinsic value, in our current system, even now, except how adept they are at financially-related matters, with such add-ons as cooking, cleaning, cooperating in child care, being a nice icing on the cake.

It is, for example, impossible for the low income male to meet the higher income female in a non-work social setting. And, the work setting is usually off-limits, too.

Even though feminist women are technically correct to criticize males for worrying so much about the ability to make money versus these other facets of a relationship with them, the truth is, the worse the economy has gotten, the more pressure women are under to notice the male's ability to pay bills, to produce useful, financially valuable labor.

And, while women cannot see these other behaviors that readily, there is also another whole set of behaviors in the social realm that women engage in, that are perceived more readily by males than by other females. This includes the constant comments to the effect of how much they "hate" this or that work, etc.

There is not any more unfairness for a woman to get a management job versus a given male, than for another male to get the job. There is no question about that. The male may or may not feel "left out" because he has been bested by a female in the competition for the position.

Yet, for the woman in question to then be seen, quite openly, dating and marrying a male who makes MORE MONEY than she does, and perhaps surrounded, also, by females who constantly speak of how much they "hate working", etc., even while continuing to best the various disgruntled males, you begin to see the somewhat ...what's a nicer word?...schizzy...message women are sending to the males in question.

On the one hand, the one man is defeated for the position. On the other hand, he is ALSO defeated in the emotional realm.

Women react to males who engage in such behaviors...with what could be called "whisper aggression", various verbal aggressions, and a certain tendency to engage in...attempts to get OTHER males to engage in physical confrontations with this rare to non-existent male who has, one the one hand, bested them for a higher paying job, yet, on the other hand, similarly defeated her/them for the emotional front by also becoming involved with a woman who makes more money than he does, even in the new position.

This is the point...both genders engage in retaliatory behaviors against each other, each in their own style.

Males have a certain...difference in behavioral repertoire with which they react to various events around them. In the case of seeing a woman who has bested them, topped them for a job, with a man who makes yet more money than they (the women in question) do, a boiling and eventual verbal to physical confrontational style may occur.

In the same way, the female who experiences that same double-whammy, almost schizzy message from a male who has on the one hand bested them for a better paying job while simultaneously mating with a female who makes more and works at a better paying position than the female just defeated.

The defeated female can say such things as "I don't mind losing a job, alright...just wish there were some real men around these days, that's all."

Think about THAT one.
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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby m.standridge » 27 May 2014, 22:02

...because, if a male makes the same statement, in reverse, (i.e., "just wish there were some real women around these days, that's all"), he's accused of being...a misogynist.

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Re: The New Misogyny

Postby susanl » 27 May 2014, 23:54

"And then that thought turns me to the very high profile child sex abusers currently have in Britain as they are brought to court....maybe the two are connected?"

I do think there is an unhealthy preoccupation with youth in the male gaze. And the corollary being that women who continue to live past the tolerance point of the male gaze are ridiculed and treated badly by the culture that promotes this.

As for hair down below, I'd rather have it fall off than be ripped off! :D
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